Murder and Mimosas Podcast
A true crime podcast with a focus on lesser known crimes and the background of those who commit these heinous acts. Each case is told with a bit of southern sass, but with tons of in depth research and respect for those lost. Join this mom and daughter duo as they sip their mimosas while diving into tragic cases. New episodes every Saturday, just in time for brunch (and a mimosa of your own)!
Murder and Mimosas Podcast
The Hyena of Auschwitz: Unmasking Irma Grese's Dark Legacy
After surviving a migraine-related stroke, our guest, Judith A. Yates, a veteran criminologist with over 35 years in law enforcement transformed her personal ordeal into a mission to uncover the dark history of Irma Grese, the notorious "Hyena of Auschwitz." In this episode, she shares how her friendship with Holocaust survivor Esther Loeb inspired her to separate fact from fiction about one of history's most infamous figures. We explore Irma Grese’s traumatic childhood and her rise through the Nazi ranks, all while dispelling myths and confronting the uncomfortable truths about the dangers of unchecked ideology and the human capacity for cruelty.
We also take a close look at the psychological and social factors that led young people like Irma to embrace the Nazi regime, examining the perilous allure of belonging and purpose. With personal insights and robust historical research, this conversation not only sheds light on Irma Grese's life but also underscores the broader implications of passivity in the face of evil. Plus, don't miss our exciting announcement about an upcoming book that promises to captivate and engage. Connect with us on social media for more true crime stories and send your case suggestions to murdermimosas@gmail.com—because your input makes this journey even more extraordinary.
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DarkCast Network. Welcome to the dark side of podcasting.
Speaker 3:Welcome to Murder and Mimosas a true crime podcast brought to you by a mother and daughter duo.
Speaker 2:Bringing you murder stories with a mimosa in hand. With a mimosa in hand, murder Mimosas is a true crime podcast, meaning we talk about adult matters such as murder, sexual assaults and other horrendous crimes. Listener discretion is advised. We do tell our stories with the victims and the victims families in mind. However, some information is more verifiable than others. However, you can find all of our information linked in the show notes.
Speaker 4:Well, my background. I have over 35 years in law enforcement and education in criminal justice. I'm currently working on my PhD in criminal justice. I am a criminologist, I've been doing this for quite a long time and I had a migraine-related stroke some years ago and thought, okay, I can't teach, I can't do anything in law enforcement, what can I do?
Speaker 4:And I started writing and I was told you know, this is a bad idea, don't do this, don't do that. Well, my first book won an award. Told you know, this is a bad idea, don't do this, don't do that. Well, my first book won an award. So I thought, okay, I'm, I'm onto something. And I started writing and I've been doing it since. I've also done public speaking across the United States, uh, training, and I just uh, it ran with me and I'm I'm very lucky, I'm very blessed to have a good, a solid fan base, I guess is the word. And I do lectures and presentations and I was volunteering for a while, but I've had to call that since my mother got sick. So that's basically about me, okay.
Speaker 2:So you've got a new book that you've been working on about Irma Grease. Am I saying her name right? Greisa, greisa, greisa.
Speaker 4:Okay, I knew that it couldn't be that easy listen, people slug that name Greisa uh it, they call her. I've heard her called Grease, greise Greaser. I mean it's crazy. So that's just one of the fallacies that comes up about Irma Greaser is even the pronunciation of her name. So you're good.
Speaker 2:Yes, so can you tell us what drew you to Irma and her story? What got you interested in?
Speaker 4:that One of my dearest friends was a Holocaust survivor and an activist. Her name was Esther Loeb, in the Nashville area. And when I would listen to Esther's story my criminologist's mind would wonder about the dynamics that created these mentalities, these concentration camp guards, the Nazi system. But my heart would wonder who could murder children, elderly people, just literally by the thousands every day? And Esther was such a kind soul I'm thinking you know the treatment of her. It just overwhelmed me.
Speaker 4:Well, it so happens that Dr Henry Lee had invited me to an international conference on crime in Japan and they were calling for papers. I submitted a paper on the mind and possible motives of Irma Greza and it was so difficult to write in part because so much information out there is just regurgitated, based on rumor, misinformation. Some people just took wild guesses and so, like all of my books, the Irma Grazer story came to me. The book came to me and I did what I always do when I get into trouble. I said I have an idea and it kind of went from there and it's been a journey. It's been coming up on, let's see, three years, because I had some information on her prior to. So it's coming up on three years. I'm hoping it will be released in winter of this year.
Speaker 3:We're very excited to read it. Yes, and can you tell us about Irma's background.
Speaker 4:Irma was born in 1923, and she is one of the most infamous females in World War II. She mostly was recognized for her youth and her beauty and being exceedingly cruel during her work as what they called a Nazi helper. Women could not be Nazis, they were not allowed. They were called Aufsaharan, which is a helper. She was from a very small town of less than 200 people I shouldn't say town, I should say village Grew up with brothers and sisters.
Speaker 4:We don't know a whole lot about her background, but she was basically ingrained in Nazism and the idealism literally from first grade up. And when she left school at 13, which was the norm at the time because it wasn't compulsory she volunteered to work in the camps and they told her come back when you're 18. She did so from ages 18 to 23,. She became the youngest of Nazi female guards, afsharian, to receive the death sentence, and the youngest woman to die judicially under British law in the 20th century. So her life is so short, there's so much that we don't know.
Speaker 4:But what we do know, I feel like, is part of what happened to her, why she became who she did. But she had I don't want to say a normal childhood, because what is that Right? You know she did have some like when she was a young teenager. Her mother committed suicide in a strange and horrific way, so she was ingrained in that. Of course, at the time they didn't have therapists or counselors for children or such, and the reason that is given for her mother's suicide is the father had a paramour and then a few years later marries. That paramour, brings her into the home with her children and they have children together. So that's what we know.
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Speaker 2:Jamaica, grand Cayman and Cozumel. We hope to see you there To book your spot on the cruise. You want to do that through Salty Kiffin's Travel. The link is found in our show notes, obviously with this book being, you know, the holocaust nazis. This is a heavy book. What was the most difficult part for you in writing and researching this book?
Speaker 4:I had nightmares and I had to step away. Because I just know, when I'm writing about a subject, I become engulfed in it, it becomes my life and with my friend Esther and looking into this, you know your head, your brain can process why this happened and then your heart steps in and it just it's so. But I had nightmares, I had to step away. I take the reader into some very dark places and I also had to do a lot of translating because so many records are either in Polish or German. But I have this amazing translator named Anne-Marie Ackerman, who's also a crime author and she can translate what is called the layman's term, the old german style of writing, as well. Okay, she was, she's amazing, she. She was able to transfer this and then, uh, on my own, here and there I've used a translator. I've also got um, someone in poland that's been involved in assisting and she has also helped translate. But that's really just. One of the hardest things was the whole translation of everything.
Speaker 4:But again, you know it's, it's a dark book, you're correct on that, and I don't want to I don't want to say spooky, dark or horrific or you're gonna be scared, but it's a heavy, heavy subject, right. And when it's a heavy, heavy subject, right.
Speaker 2:When it's multiple heavy subjects kind of in there together. The Holocaust is heavy, true crime is very heavy. You're putting these two heavy subjects together and you know it only seems right that it would be a very heavy book.
Speaker 4:It is. It's also educational, and I want to stress that because you know there's so many people that, oh, I don't want to hear about that, it's too scary. Well, yes, it is, you know. But if we don't educate ourselves, then we're going to rely on rumor and innuendo and be just like so many of these people that were involved in this story. If you're uneducated, you're going to fall right into something or not want to know about something, and that's, you know, that's terror in itself, right, that's true.
Speaker 2:So you were talking about translating. So what sources did you end up using for this book? Obviously they weren't English, so could you let us know a little bit about that? As you were researching what kind of sources you found to help you, as you were writing bit about that, as you were researching what, kind of sources you found to help you as you were writing.
Speaker 4:I have been very blessed to have literally every museum and memorial and records department assisted me in this book. There are over 100 images. It's going to be probably close to 400 pages. Some of the images are going to be in color because I feel like that really brings you to the story, which is very different for me the size and the photos, the images, but I went to literally I've traveled to Poland, I've traveled to Germany, to Canada, here within the States, and have talked to some wonderful, wonderful people that said I have something for you.
Speaker 4:And then, just when I think I have all of it that I need, someone pops up from a hotbed, poland, at a memorial, sends me a note and says do you want pictures of an actual uniform worn by one of the officers in Ravensbrück? Wow. And sends me photos so that you see the actual tunic and shirt and skirt and such that these women wore when they were guards in the camps. And then I have documents like Irma's last letter before she was led to the gallows oh, wow, yeah, it's something. Because, again, I've literally traveled all over the world with all of these different organizations, state libraries, all of these different organizations, state libraries. I just got off an email with a individual at the library of Germany state library located in Germany. I'm just following all over myself here that sent me something. And then I find a manual on how to be an officer, which Irma would have read and been trained in.
Speaker 3:That's crazy. I just love all the idea of pictures. That just makes it come to life, like it's. Sometimes you can read history and it doesn't relate, unless you see things, or for me anyway.
Speaker 4:Yeah, visual learners and a lot of criminal justice people. Readers are visual learners and I wanted to have both the photos and the information and then the behind the story. And it was hard to not go off on tangents because, okay, I could have talked about Ravensbrück, I could have talked about and I have to give a little bit of a history about each of the camps she worked at to understand the world she walked into. But of course that can go off into tangents. But I've interviewed Holocaust survivors, I've interviewed families of Holocaust survivors and you know, one leads to the other, some wonderful authors out there who have written books prior to this one that jumped in and assisted. But you're right, when I started getting the images I said this needs to be in color because I want people to see what this actually looked like as tangible as it can get.
Speaker 2:So, as we know, the Holocaust is a big thing that's had many books written about it. Can you kind of tell us why your book is different or why you would write about this? You know period of time when it is highly written about.
Speaker 4:I believe knowledge is power and I refuse to write a book on just the crime. You know she was an innocent, blonde-haired, blue-eyed young college girl. She was walking down the street, she was kidnapped Terrible things. The end Nobody learns anything from that. That's entertainment. That's entertainment on somebody's expense. We have to learn something from what we're reading in the criminal justice world and we can learn about the Holocaust, about how it was for victims you know some interviews with perpetrators. But equally important is how it happened, what people made it happen, what was the motive? What was the ideals? What made it happen? What was the motive? What was the ideals? Why were they so committed to this that leading children into a fiery pit was normal? And then you could go and, you know, have a cup of blueberries during the week and have pictures of yourself made laughing and talking, and so I believe that's why it's different is because now we're talking about a perpetrator and there's so many many misconceptions about Irma Greza. I wanted to set the record straight as much as I could.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I totally agree, and I think it'll be a really, really interesting read, but also something I'll walk away with more knowledge, awesome. So, on that, what do you hope readers take away overall from this book after reading?
Speaker 4:That's a good question. It's a true examination of Grandma Greza's life and theories on what creates someone like Greza. I took in her environment, her background, her life, her work. I discussed some of the history so that people do understand, and I want them to understand that one. These were, as one survivor said, these were normal people who did abnormal things. I want people to understand that they need to take a stand instead of passively watching things that they don't like go by and then later they go you know God, what a mess that was and to see these people as human beings, both the people you know, the group of people that were led into the chambers and the crematoriums, and such they were, individuals with stories and lives and loves and anger. And so were the perpetrators Right. But what separated it? How?
Speaker 3:did she get her nickname?
Speaker 4:oh the, the hyena boss witch. Yes, oh, ah, I should. I should do my dr phil now. Go well, you need to read the book. What you need to do is get on and read the book.
Speaker 2:We will do that.
Speaker 4:That's a key factor right there, because I discovered some really really interesting behind the scenes there.
Speaker 2:some really really interesting behind the scenes there. Did you find that this book was harder or different to write than the books that you've written?
Speaker 4:previously in the true crime genre. Yes and no, everybody, you know, I say everybody because they're so entrenched in me. But all of the books are so separate on their own. The first one was about a boy that was murdered by a family member. Then I discussed Red Flags of a Child Abuser, a Child Predator. Then there was when Nashville Bled, which was about serial killer Paul Dennis Reid, which was local. So that was kind of a standalone. And then I did write the book on practical common sense self-defense and that was an entirely different entity. So it's different in the fact that they're like people. To me they're like this person is kind of like this one, but very different than this person has something in common but they're still very different. So, going back in time that far and being a part of something that's very personable to me, with with my friend and such, I I'm not sure how to answer that because they're, all you know, different on their own Right.
Speaker 2:That makes sense. I can understand that. So obviously Irma is not. We know she's a perpetrator. We know that it was during the Holocaust. How did she rise through the ranks? How?
Speaker 4:did she rise through the ranks? That's interesting also because she was a product of both nature and nurture Okay, and there's never going to be one reason why she was so cruel. But as far as rising through the ranks, she was a stalwart supporter of the Nazi party, from what I understand from youth. But you have to understand what this party and the Hitler youth offered these young people. So she was like so many others, looking to belong and looking for a reason for, you know, life and a cause to believe in, and I believe she fell into it in that way. But she had a lot of narcissistic tendencies. She had a lot of antisocial tendencies and there's just no one reason why. Like every other criminal, it was a combination. There are marked narcissistic injuries to her psyche. As a child being raised in the Nazi rhetoric, looking for a purpose, looking for a reason. She had the mental capacity to be a sadist and a sadistic off-Saharan and, like so many of the perpetrators, she needed the Nazi party as much as the Nazi party needed her.
Speaker 2:That makes sense. I mean, I can't imagine growing up, you know, with that rhetoric of the Nazis and coming out, you know, a person that you would expect. I mean coming out as a I don't want to say normal person, because again we've talked about what is normal, but yes, coming out unscathed, mentally, emotionally, psychologically. So I know you talked about there was some inconsistencies as you were researching at times there were a lot of just regurgitating information through this book. Is there any lore or conspiracies or, um, you know, controversies maybe that um, you were able to find the answers to and put to rest in this book with factual information versus you know guesses or but yes and no.
Speaker 4:Uh, I read, you know, some of the literature that I read um, for example, one person says jews were forced to wear the star of davis. Um, yeah, or that, um. And then there was, uh, one one author who used a modern test on Irma Greisa to determine her personality, which is crazy because it was a question and answer, that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 3:Wouldn't that be a question?
Speaker 4:okay, it was, and they just went ahead and, I guess, answered for her and she ends up being a kind person who cares for others through this tip.
Speaker 2:That's crazy. I feel like that's not the math isn't nothing for me on that one.
Speaker 4:And you know I don't want to. I don't want to bash anyone, I don't want to say anything cruel or mean about other authors. I will say that you know for what information they had at the time, because you mentioned about can't imagine growing up in the Nazi party. We have to understand. We know now what it all came to, but back then they did not Right. It was, like you know, the new promise, the reason that Germany is going to be great again. Everybody's going to have a part, everybody's going to succeed. Who wouldn't want that after what had happened with World War I and what was happening in their economy? So at the time it was this new, fresh idea that everyone jumped on the bandwagon, for good reason. Reason because everybody wants to succeed and have a job and be a good person.
Speaker 4:And that was what it all became right but we didn't have, obviously, internet and and behind the scenes. Back then you only saw what you, what you saw, and there was so much rhetoric. I, newspapers were censored, movies, magazines. Every child, for example, during Irma's growing up, was required to say Heil Hitler instead of hello. Oh, wow, I didn't know that. Oh yeah, and if you didn't say it, you could be reported.
Speaker 5:Hello my spooky friends. This is your host, john from Dairyland Frights, the paranormal podcast that covers creepy guests and spooky tales and mysterious sightings of cryptids, ufos, ghosts and everything paranormal. So tune in if you dare to be scared.
Speaker 4:And when you get reported it really turns into, you know, a ball of hell because they could hurt you, your family, people could just disappear, your children and also so many people believed in the idea but also understand that not all of Germany or Germany-occupied territories believed in the ideal.
Speaker 2:Right, right. So I know at the beginning you talked a little bit about her very short life. Was there any public reaction to her sentencing or her trial at that time?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that was the first trial, the first trial of the Nazi trials, and so you had people covering it from all sections of the globe. And what was interesting to me I'll do this on this side is they focus so much on her beauty.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah. You say that's because she was a woman or just because she was beautiful?
Speaker 4:Yes. Or both, maybe both. You know well you're never going to see. You know well he was handsome and debonair and he killed. Now we do now, but back then and of course up until now, it was always the female, the femme fatale, right. It's interesting because I also got contacted by Holocaust deniers and Holocaust revisionists, but I also listened to them to see what they had to say.
Speaker 2:Yes, I shouldn't be surprised that people like that exist, but I'd never heard of them until just now. I was like Holocaust, what?
Speaker 4:Never heard that. Holocaust deniers and then revisionists who say, well, yes, it happened, but not the way they're saying it happened, interesting. It's kind of their own spin on the story. You know, irma Greza was forced into the off-Saharan and forced into the camps. She was really a kind young girl who just got way late. What you have to understand too is only a small, small percentage of women in Germany and Nazi I'm sorry, german-occupied territories. Small percentage even became of Saharan or working in the camps. An even smaller percentage was interested in this line of work, but soon it became compulsory because Germany's losing the war. We need more bodies, more bodies. So we've got to hire more women because we've got to put the men at the front. You know, in the end of the war they had kids 10, 12, 16, on the front lines or battling as Russia's invading and you know's, it was kind of like everybody is going to get involved in saving this country or else and Irma did not accidentally sort of fall into it she joined.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, so off, irma, just for a second, because you said you're working on something else. Do you want to give us a sneak peek into what's coming?
Speaker 4:Ah, let's see what can I say. I'm interviewing a very notorious child predator right now, because one of the next books I want to write is educational, for law enforcement to use as a tool for catching and understanding child predators this guy's. And then of course we have the other one that I have going on, where she's interesting. I'll just say that, Wildly interesting, and you know it's one of those jaw-dropping things and again, I don't want to sound all dramatic.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we'll go back to Irma now. Okay, I was just curious, more than anything, I just know what else is coming up, but I feel like we've hit all of the questions we had. Is there anything that you wanted to mention or talk about with the book that we haven't hit yet?
Speaker 4:This book is very different in that it has so many images and so much information all contained in one story of her. To understand Irma Greisa, you have to understand how Ravensburg was ran. To understand Irma Greisa, you have to understand Hitler Youth, and so I have to explain a little bit of everything and how it affected her. The last part of the book is a examination of why she was like she was, and I use several theories and kind of expound on that because, again, no crime as one reason, right, just like you know, this recent shooting, this person didn't just randomly go and do this. There were reasons mental health and gun laws, and you know, perception and everything else.
Speaker 4:Perception and everything else, kind of I don't want to say perfect storm, because that sounds cruel, but a storm of things that got together and as a result and Irma Greza was a lot like the Nazi party, how it developed it started with an idea, it started with words and fear, because discrimination is just fear, and you know, kind of became this storm. That was Irma Greza. And another thing is people are so struck by oh, she was so young, she was so young. Well, you have to look at the time too, that's true.
Speaker 2:I didn't think about that, but that is true.
Speaker 4:Right, that's true. I didn't think're going. The world is going to hell you know, and we have to do something.
Speaker 4:We have to do something to fix this hell. Okay, well, that was Germany pre-World War II is bad economies, bad people. What are we going to do? So you know, life imitates, people imitates life, and history literally does repeat itself. So I don't want anyone repeating what happened to people, even though it's still happening all over the world. You know, irma Greisa could be so many people that are prominent now, and and so many of those women, the off-saharan I'm kind of rambling here so many women, the off-saharan, uh, they went back to normal lives, the world. You know, the war was over, they left their posts and they went back to being mommies and grandmommies and wives and sisters, and without you know, know, not thinking about it, thinking twice about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I feel like this is going to be a very, very interesting book.
Speaker 3:I can't wait for it to come out. It does sound very exciting, Is it just? Will we be able to get it anywhere? Are there certain places we'll be able to get it once it comes out?
Speaker 4:I'm not doing an electronic copy and people are like at that, but I want it to be tangible, I want it to be in hand and I'm looking again at, hopefully, winter of this year, and you can get it on any, I should say, anywhere that sells quality books. And then you can also keep track of the book on my website, which is truecrimebooknet.
Speaker 2:And we'll have that linked in the show notes so people can find it easily, and we'll keep social media updated on our end so people know when it releases.
Speaker 3:I'm very excited to read it.
Speaker 2:It's yeah, very. You know, I feel like it's one of those books I'll be engrossed in and I won't have a family.
Speaker 3:For a week I've done that we always recommend more bubbly and less OJ Cheers.
Speaker 2:If you'd like to see pictures from today's episode, you can find us at murdermimosas on Instagram. You can also find us at murdermimosas on TikTok, twitter, and if you have a case you'd like us to do, you can send that to murdermimosas at gmailcom. And lastly, we are on Facebook at Murder and Mimosas Podcast, where you can interact with us there. We love any type of feedback you can give us, so please rate and review us on Spotify, itunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts.