The Hidden Horror in an Ordinary Neighborhood

What happens when a seemingly ordinary, struggling single mother of seven becomes the mastermind behind one of the most gruesome child abuse cases in American history? This episode of Murder and Mimosas unpacks the dark and horrifying journey of Gertrude Baniszewski. We navigate through the tumultuous episodes of her life, from abusive relationships and financial struggles to the tragic collision course with the Likens family. Witness how a mix of neglect and desperation set the stage for an unimaginable tragedy.

Imagine the unimaginable cruelty endured by a teenage girl at the hands of her caregiver and neighborhood children. Sylvia Likens' story is a chilling testament to the dark side of human nature and societal failure. Despite visible signs of unspeakable abuse, those who could have intervened remained silent. This episode brings to light the heart-wrenching suffering Sylvia faced and questions the morality and vigilance of a community that overlooked the glaring signs of distress. We scrutinize the heartbreaking inaction and reflect on the lessons that still resonate today.

Lastly, we delve into the unsettling aftermath: the trials, paroles, and the haunting shadows that linger over all involved. We draw parallels between past and present childcare practices and ponder the long-term psychological impacts on everyone touched by this case. As we announce our exciting upcoming true crime and Halloween cruise, we invite our listeners to engage with us on our social media platforms, share their thoughts, and suggest new cases for us to explore. Don't forget to pour yourself a mimosa and stay tuned for more gripping stories.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Darkcast Network. Welcome to the dark side of podcasting.

Speaker 2: 0:05

Welcome to Murder and Mimosas, a true crime podcast brought to you by a mother and daughter duo.

Speaker 3: 0:13

Bringing you murder stories with a mimosas in hand.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Just a quick disclaimer before we get started. Our show is Murder and Mimosas it's a true crime podcast. Before we get started Our show is Murder and Mimosas it's a true crime podcast. This means that we do discuss crimes, including, but not limited to, disappearances, murder and sexual assault. All our episodes are told with the respect of the victims and the victims' families in mind. We strive to ensure that we provide factual information. Some information is more verifiable than others. With that, grab your mimosas and let's dive in.

Speaker 3: 0:57

Welcome back to Murder and Mimosas. I'm Shannon. And I'm Danica and we have been away for a while, but we are back and ready to roll?

Speaker 2: 1:07

We are ready, and I know that you've got a crazy case for us today, so let's dive in.

Speaker 3: 1:14

Okay, so it was October 26, 1965. Many people were gearing up for Halloween, but there couldn't be anything as spooky as what was going on at the Banaszewski house. In that house lived single mother, gertrude and her seven kids. Yes, seven kids, that's way too many kids, right? I wish I knew more about her life, but I couldn't find a lot. She did seem to grow up in like a working class home. Her father died when she was 10 and at 16 she dropped out of school to marry her boyfriend, john Banaszewski. So John was a police officer, but he had a wicked temper and was physically abusive to Gertrude. In spite of that, the couple had four children and they were married for 10 years before they ended up getting a divorce.

Speaker 2: 2:07

Girls should have been leaving way sooner than 10 years.

Speaker 3: 2:11

Well, just wait. So Gertrude found herself another suitor and they married. But that marriage didn't stick and after only three months of marriage they got a divorce. Oddly enough, john and Gertrude reunited maybe out of love, maybe for finances, I don't know but they did end up having two more children before they again divorced. After about eight years they divorced in 1963. Not long after the ink was drawn on those divorce papers, she began seeing a 20-year-old, dennis Lee Rod.

Speaker 2: 2:46

How old would she have been? About that?

Speaker 3: 2:47

time, so she would have been about 35 then. Okay, she definitely has a tie, because this man, or should we say kid was also abusive. She got pregnant right away with Dennis and as soon as she got pregnant, had the baby he ran off, so the two never actually even got married. I wonder if her father was abusive.

Speaker 2: 3:10

Because they say like that, people tend to repeat that pattern.

Speaker 3: 3:14

They do say that, like I said, I couldn't find much but it did talk about. She had a really good relationship with her father, though, and she was devastated when he died when she was 10. But I don't, I don't know. There was really not much to find out or that I could find out Interesting. So here's Gertrude with seven kids. She's got Paula that's 17, stephanie's 15, john's 12, marie is 11, shirley is 10, james is 8, and then she's got baby Dennis 11, shirley is 10, james is 8, and then she's got baby Dennis. And she's also got little to no money.

Speaker 3: 3:53

John does yeah, you've got seven kids, no joke. But John does pay child support, but it's not consistent. And well, dennis, he doesn't contribute at all. She does have odd jobs to try to pay her rent, but she doesn't have anything steady. And I mean, let's be honest, if she did have a steady job and I don't even really know much about daycare then but she would be paying through the roof for these kids. Yeah, I mean, maybe she could have been a waitress or done something at night and have the older children watch the younger ones, but that's only if she trusted them enough to do that. Plus, maybe she just didn't want to work. I don't know. Like I said, I couldn't find a lot, but I will say she was supposed to have been asthmatic, but she was a chain smoker. I know that goes really hand in hand if you're a chain smoker or you're asthmatic, you should be a chain smoker.

Speaker 2: 4:46

It also said she's asthmatic and not just a smoker's one so she was.

Speaker 3: 4:50

It also said she was suffering from clinical depression, and I don't doubt at all that she probably was. I would if I had seven kids, I would too. But I was also thinking at this time was that something that they really diagnosed or that you went to the doctor about in the 60s? Because that part kind of threw me like was she really diagnosed? I don't know, but that's what it said.

Speaker 2: 5:13

I can't tell you Me either.

Speaker 3: 5:14

I don't feel like it was. You know something?

Speaker 2: 5:17

that was really diagnosed a lot back then. I don't know, the doctor probably was like seven kids. You must be depressed, Not to say I love kids as a teacher, but like I could not have seven Also, my body would give out before seven, I think.

Speaker 3: 5:33

So that brings me to the Likens family. Lester and his wife Betty had a set of twins. Then they had a daughter, sylvia, and then they had another set of twins and their marriage Lester's a baby and their marriage during the baby boom. When was that baby? That was in the 50s.

Speaker 2: 5:49

Well, 60s may have been too, but on the late end of the baby boom my mom was in the 50s and that was baby boom era.

Speaker 3: 5:56

I'm not sure what the whole era of baby boom is 1946 to 1964 so that's they're at the tail end of that baby boom and they're booming out babies.

Speaker 3: 6:07

So their marriage, as well as their finances, were a little shaky, to say the least. They moved a lot because their main source of income was working concessions at the carnival stand throughout Indiana. So this means the children didn't have the best education or stability. The boys often went with their parents to help set up, while the girls were often left with their grandmother or other relatives. So by 1965, their oldest daughter had gotten married and moved out and that left 16-year-old Sylvia and 15-year-old Jenny, who actually had polio as a child and had to wear some leg braces, that was still walking with a limp. So that left the two of them really to deal with. Since they took the boys Right. So the family was just scraping by. So there wasn't a lot of money left to do anything. Fun really. But Sylvia would do odd jobs to help earn money, and what she didn't give to her parents she would use to take her and her sister jenny out skating and she was very protective of jenny and would try to help her skate.

Speaker 3: 7:13

The larkin sisters went to arsenal technical high school along with some of bertrude's children, which is where they became acquainted I would say more acquainted than friends, because they they just weren't friends, but they knew of each other, yes. So lester asked gertrude if she would mind if the girls boarded with her while they were away with the carnival and he would pay her twenty dollars a week and I just want to stop there for a minute because that doesn't sound like a lot of money $20 a week for two girls. But I did look it up and Gertrude's rent at the time was only $55 a month. So when you put it in that perspective it kind of sounds like a lot of money, because that's covering her entire rent and leaving money.

Speaker 2: 8:02

I don't know. I mean, that's like $200 now, $200 a week.

Speaker 3: 8:10

Wow. So I mean, and I don't know at first it didn't sound a lot, but I don't know how much carnival workers make that's at.

Speaker 3: 8:22

And I was thinking why can they still stay with their grandmother or family? But I can only speculate that maybe the girls you know you don't, you don't want to keep switching schools or things like that when she become a teenager, and maybe the family or grandmother wasn't in that school district. I don't know, I can only speculate about whatever those reasons are. But whatever they are, I'm sure that her father ended up regretting that later. So they ended up leaving the girls with Gertrude in early July of 1965. Things went really well for a few weeks, but then the $20 started being delayed and this could be because of when he dropped it in the mail, or the mail was just late, like a post office error, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 9:07

I mean you can't, I mean it just doesn't come automatically all the time whenever you're mailing stuff back. Even now you never know when things are going to get there.

Speaker 2: 9:16

You saying they don't have direct deposit back then no.

Speaker 3: 9:19

He couldn't just cash out. No, that was not a thing.

Speaker 2: 9:25

We're going to pause here for just a moment for a quick break.

Speaker 3: 9:28

So, whatever the case may be, gertrude was not happy about it and she would take it out on the girls and beat their butts literally. The girls also attended Sunday school with the Vanazuzi kids as well as church functions, and on one occasion in August of 1965, paula, gertrude's oldest daughter, said the girls ate too much at the church supper and both of them were beaten with a paddle on the back when they got home.

Speaker 2: 9:55

I want to know what too much is. Let me go back for a second. I don't know.

Speaker 3: 9:59

I mean, they weren't big by any means. We can link some pictures up there of them, but they are not big. So eventually this abuse became a regular occurrence for no reason at all Not that I'm saying there is a reason or justifiable reason for being deep, but this turned out to be more of a sport or a game for Gertrude, and it was mostly aimed at Sylvia. I'm not sure why she doesn't really do this to Jenny, and also it could have been Sylvia being protective of her sister and, like I'll do it, I'll take the beating. I'm not sure.

Speaker 2: 10:34

I was about to ask if it said she was protective of Jenny. I wonder if she like tried to stand up to Gertrude or intercept the abuse between her little sister.

Speaker 3: 10:46

Not only had she begun to beat Sylvia regularly, she also began to starve her or have her eat rotten leftovers out of the trash. She's a kid, not a raccoon. So in August of 1965, 17-year-old Paula was three months pregnant. Gertrude asked the Likings girls had they ever done anything with a boy? She told them, if they did, they were sure to have a baby, maybe because this woman was so fertile and didn't seem to know what contraceptive was.

Speaker 3: 11:18

So after saying this, she kicked Sylvia in the crotch area, which knocked her out of her chair, and when she fell to the floor area, which knocked her out of her chair. And when she fell to the floor, gertrude continued to attack her, and Paula joined in as well, just kicking and beating her While she's pregnant.

Speaker 2: 11:34

She's pregnant. No, paula's pregnant.

Speaker 3: 11:37

Oh yes, paula's pregnant, paula's pregnant, yes.

Speaker 2: 11:39

She's just like man, she's going to be a great mom. Mm-hmm, yeah, man, she's going to be a great mom.

Speaker 3: 11:43

Mm-hmm. As I said, she was starved at times, but there was a time she thought it'd be funny to force feed her a hot dog with tons of stuff on it. Paula also stepped in and helped with this, again, along with the neighborhood boy named Randy Gordon Leeper. Once Sylvia threw it up, she was forced to eat the vomit that she threw up.

Speaker 2: 12:06

Okay, disgusting.

Speaker 3: 12:12

And where did this neighbor come from? There's actually a few neighbor kids that actually come and it's very odd that all of this would even happen. But Sylvia was definitely outnumbered at home. But she got some vindication, or tried to, when she started the rumor at school that stephanie was a prostitute when stephanie was one of gertrude's daughters.

Speaker 3: 12:30

She was a 15 year old. So when they returned home, stephanie confronted sylvia about it, which sylvia admitted she's like yes, I did that. I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that. Stephanie punched her and sylvia apologized. Both of the girls began to cry and I think they made up. I mean, like Stephanie didn't keep beating her, like her older sister or anything or her mother.

Speaker 3: 12:53

But Stephanie's got a 15-year-old boyfriend named Roy Hubbard and he heard about the rumor and he came over and slapped Sylvia and beat her head against the wall and threw her to the floor. Then Gertrude caught wind of this rumor and she also took turns, beating her with a paddle.

Speaker 2: 13:16

We're going to pause here for just a moment, for a quick break. We'll be right back.

Speaker 1: 13:22

Sup creeps and welcome to Creepy Confidential. Is mothman really a supernatural force predicting impending doom? Did apollo 11 really land on the moon in 1969? Did you find out if that was a cult that was living just two doors down that you waved to every single day when you got your mail? If these are the things you ponder when you should be sleeping, then I would like to welcome you to Creepy Confidential. I'm your host, noelle, your resident weirdo Wisconsinite. I open case files on my favorite cryptids, cults, conspiracies and other worldly creepy, with new cases live broadcasts.

Speaker 3: 14:05

Thank you, Sylvia became the human punching bag and Paula had beat her so forcefully at one time that she broke her wrist and then, after she got her wrist in a cast, she went back and beat her with her cast. So this was like the. If they weren't watching tv I don't know what came on in the 60s leave it to beaver or something. But if they weren't doing that, the entertainment for the family and even a lot of the neighborhood kids was beating sylvia. She would let the neighborhood kids come in and use her as a human punching bag. They would practice judo sessions on her, they would put their cigarette butts out on her, which I don't even know why these kids are smoking.

Speaker 3: 15:12

It's the 60s, yeah, that's true, and I mean, apparently gertrude was the ringleader of all this and she would join in and do all these crazy things. But also, I mean, she is a chain smokers, so let's not go whack-a-doodle. So I guess that is also why everybody at her house is smoking. That you would. I don't know, it was the 60s, but I'm just thinking. Did any of these kids have any kind of moral compass at all or anybody telling I?

Speaker 2: 15:42

don't know. They see an adult doing it and they think it's okay.

Speaker 3: 15:44

I guess, so maybe the verbal and physical abuse became boring for the family and kids in the neighborhood, so Gertrude decided to have Sylvia strip naked in the neighborhood. So gertrude decided to have sylvia strip naked in the living room one night, with all of them around, and masturbate with a glass pepsi bottle. She also said this would prove to jenny, which was sylvia's sister, what kind of girl sylvia was, and I can't even imagine how physically painful that would be, but also so humiliating for this teenage girl. Sylvia was caught stealing gym clothes from school. I guess this is like what you see on TV, like everybody wearing the same little outfits.

Speaker 2: 16:26

Yeah, they don't do that anymore.

Speaker 3: 16:28

So Gertrude refused to buy her gym suits. So Sylvia took matters into her own hands and once Gertrude found out, she beat her with a belt, picked her repeatedly in the groin area and forbid her to go back to school. Stephanie may be the only bamboozle or banazuki kid. I don't know bamboozle.

Speaker 3: 16:50

I know I was saw that and I'm like wait, that's not the word I need With any humanity at all, because she began to beg her mother to stop beating her and Gertrude didn't.

Speaker 3: 17:04

In fact, after that she burned her fingertips with matches, and I mean, this poor girl just trying to get gym clothes for class and making sure just stills some, just so she has something in class. So the odd thing about this to me is the girls could have told the school what was going on, and their parents actually came about once a month and visited them. So at times I'm not sure why they didn't say anything other than like got off of fear they must have had Right Of Gertrude of what would happen if they left the girls. Like I mentioned, they did have an older sister. The girls did, however, see their older sister in September at a park and they told her about all the things that were happening to them and sadly, their sister thought that they were just like really exaggerating about all this going on, which I mean I can kind of see. Can you even imagine this stuff?

Speaker 3: 18:00

no, someone told me all this, but like there's got to be marks and stuff on sylvia that she could have been like look, here's where they're putting cigarette burn, here's like all of these bruises, and that is true because I don't know if you've ever noticed on my mom has a place where she said she put a cigarette on her own arm. I guess that was a cool thing in the 60s maybe, but she still has a scar there and that's just one. She thought it would be cool to do that to herself and hope you're not listening to this, but but I'm thinking, yeah, you're right, she's got to have all these scars of this happening.

Speaker 3: 18:37

But for whatever, her sister just thought you know, ok, they don't like it there. But I'm sorry if you told me that as my sister I got to check out some of this, right?

Speaker 2: 18:49

Right.

Speaker 3: 18:50

So there was also this father in the neighborhood, michael Horn Monroe, that called the school to report that there was a girl with open sores living at the Banaszewski house. And I'm a little confused as to why he called the school, but at least he did something. So a school nurse happened to come to the house and Gertrude told her that Sylvie had ran away and she had no idea where she was. So nothing ever came of that. So at least somebody tried. There was a time that Maria, one of Gertrude's kids, heard Sylvia say she was hungry, and she told her mother what Sylvia had said. Gertrude accused her of gluttony. And what does one do to get rid of gluttony? Well, gertrude accused her of gluttony. And what does one do to get rid of gluttony? Well, gertrude and Paula beat her and put her in a bath of scalding water to cleanse her of her sin. While in the bath, when she would faint from the excruciating pain, they would bang her head into the bathtub to bring her to if she happened to faint.

Speaker 2: 19:56

I wonder what kind of punishment they get for their sins, because oh, I would love to be there. I mean, I'm just trying to figure out if you get a scorching hot hell water bath for gluttony, because you just said I'm hungry. I want to know what Gertrude and Father did.

Speaker 3: 20:16

I hope they got all kinds of things. So anyway, the abuse continued and Sylvia was placed in the basement, usually naked and sometimes tied to the railing. She was deprived of food, bathing and even a toilet down there, and due to the malnutrition she was often not very coherent and this in turn would really set off Gertrude and that would make her inflict more pain on her. And then Gertrude's son actually started helping with abuse too, once she got down here and naked everything. So there was one time she was brought upstairs and told the strip and said um, you branded my daughter, so I'm going to brand you. She heated a needle and began carving I'm a prostitute and proud of it on Sylvia's stomach she's saying she branded her daughter.

Speaker 2: 21:11

She's starting up with the rumor that her daughter was.

Speaker 3: 21:15

Okay, so obviously, I mean, I haven't had a tattoo, you have some, so I don't know how long that process takes. And this is well, this isn't even a tattoo. This is a brandy, but with a needle. So it kind of sounds like a tattoo to me in my head.

Speaker 2: 21:31

So tattoo to me and my head. So uh well, I know a tattoo it doesn't feel like, but it roses I mean it has some pain.

Speaker 3: 21:40

I'm sure this is way more pain than a tattoo. This is a heated needle. But sylvia, I mean I'm sorry gertrude is doing this and then kind of gets bored with it and she doesn't even want to finish her little sentence. So one of the neighborhood kids, richard, decides he'll finish this for her.

Speaker 3: 21:56

What a gentleman I know. In fact she was beaten by him, if she even moaned or flinched. And a few days later Gertrude forced Sylvia to write a letter saying that she ran away. Saying that she ran away, Gertrude had actually planned to take her out to the woods and leave her there. I never really understood this, since she was getting paid to keep her. But I guess she realized with the extreme abuse and lack of food she was probably on the verge of death. And you know you don't want to get slammed with murder charges.

Speaker 3: 22:34

So the day after the letter was written, Sylvia tried to escape after she overheard the plans to kill her or leave her for dead in the woods. Sadly she was so weak that she couldn't make it out the front door like she attempted. She was force-fed crackers once they caught her headed for the door and she and coy beat her with a curtain rod. Her gertrude sorry. It was two more days of torture before sylvia was finally. Before sylvia finally passed away and was no longer in pain, stephanie had realized she wasn't breathing and tried to give her mouth to mouth, but gertrude told her she was just faking and to just stop.

Speaker 2: 23:16

Gertrude realized that she was faking, not breathing.

Speaker 3: 23:20

Yes, just fake. Yeah, she was just faking it because she loves attention. So Gertrude did realize that it was in fact not a joke and sent Richard Hobbs to a pay phone to call the police. Not a joke. And sent Richard Hobbs to a pay phone to call the police. Once they got there, she gave them the note that said you know how she had wanted to run away and said Sylvia had ran away with some teenage boys but had returned to the house naked and holding this note.

Speaker 3: 23:47

The police questioned everyone in the house as to what happened. Jenny said what she was told to say to the police when they got there, but she also whispered to the police if you get me out of here, I'll tell you everything. So the police did in fact take her with them. She told them everything, and then, within hours, gertrude, paula, stephanie and John of the Banaszewskis were arrested, along with Coy Hubbard and Richard Hobbs. Of course, gertrude denies all allegations and in fact blames her daughter and Coy for all of the beatings. Paula, though, does. She admits to everything. She doesn't seem the least bit remorseful. I mean, she did kind of grow up with this stuff, so maybe in her mind this is normal. I mean she was the oldest.

Speaker 3: 24:43

She was already like in her late teens, yeah, so she I mean they're talking about she's not remorseful, she doesn't?

Speaker 2: 24:51

she's shown him everything product of her mother.

Speaker 3: 24:54

So John tells them his part as well, and he doesn't appear remorseful either. Five other kids in the neighborhood were eventually arrested and they were placed back into the custody of their parents as they awaited trial, due to all of them being subpoenaed to testify. But, I guess the charges weren't really enough to do much to them, or maybe they made deals to testify for lesser charges. Stephanie was later released and waived her immunity from potential prosecution and agreed to testify against her family and all those in charge with the abuse of Sylvia.

Speaker 2: 25:34

But she waived her immunity so she could still be charged. Yes, they told her that but she didn't care.

Speaker 3: 25:40

She's like the only one with a heart, I think.

Speaker 2: 25:42

Or a conscience, or morals, or humanity.

Speaker 3: 25:46

So also during this time, paula is you know she's pregnant. They put her in a hospital instead of a jail and she ends up having her baby, which ends up being a daughter that she names gertrude after her mother, because her mother is such a good, good role model, role model and I really thought you're about to say sylvia, though, and I was like that's just like sound twisted in some way.

Speaker 2: 26:10

That would be, gertrude is not a great name for your child. If your name is Gertrude, I'm sorry, but don't name your kid that, especially if your mother is named. Gertrude and she is an evil just terrible person.

Speaker 3: 26:22

That also might tell you something about her that this isn't even like, wow, my mom is crap. She's like I should name her after her. She's such a stain or so great of a mother, I don't know. But Gertrude, paula, john, richard and Coy were all tried together and the courtroom was packed every single day. There were only 50 chairs in the courtroom and there was one day these two women got into it about the last chair and one of them got their hand cut trying fighting for this last chair. And you know they've got all these old newspaper articles and I did read one that said, um, it was from one of the attorneys and he said that just imagine if this many people had showed up to take care of Sylvia, which gave me chills. That feels like a kick in the stomach, yeah, jesus, but it's given me chills again. Saying it, it's just I was like, oh my gosh, that really hits home if you think about that. I mean, we are fascinated about this stuff.

Speaker 2: 27:29

What if they'd have been this proactive to what was happening? I almost want to cry to sylvia. Yeah, instead of being misreactive and wanting to like make a spectator sport out of what happened, I am crying. It's rare that I get teary-eyed that I still got chills out.

Speaker 3: 27:48

It was weird when I read that article and I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't. That put things in perspective to me then. And then you've given myself chills again when I read like, like.

Speaker 2: 27:58

I legit like my eyes here got like I'm trying to just hold it, but like that's so true. I mean, yeah, I didn't think about it that way. When you were talking about it being a pet courtroom, my first run was like I would want to be there too, like I would want to know how this could happen.

Speaker 3: 28:15

But, like lord, I know, and that is this sad thing because we we know, with a lot of cases, even like I think about, I taught and I was a, you know, mandated reporter, but you get frustrated because you do report those things and we hear about things being reported and there were kids that I knew were being abused and they were still in the home or not being fed, and it's frustrating. But I would say, just still keep on, keep on and keep on, do whatever you can because, like you said, if this, if this many people had actually been worried about her, where she could have been, or even just a few.

Speaker 2: 28:57

I mean, nobody really said anything.

Speaker 3: 29:01

Nobody was doing anything.

Speaker 2: 29:03

Instead, they were jumping in to partake in her abuse.

Speaker 3: 29:08

That gets me too, like how many. I know that you want to fit in and be whatever. I just feel like even I remember trying to watch this movie and I couldn't even watch the movie. I barely got into it and I was like I can't watch this. This is and this was real life happening stuff. And this wasn't phasing them. So you're just what. What is going?

Speaker 2: 29:31

on and people talk about now that people are desensitized. But I mean yeah this is horrendous. Yeah, it's. Some of it gives me like the I don't want to say the bystander effect, because of the bystander effect, like they don't partake in it. Right, they see it and they assume somebody else will say something. And these people were going a step further and they were helping in abusing her and humiliating her and just just tearing her down in every possible way.

Speaker 3: 30:00

So and part of me was thinking I don't want to blame the parents because they didn't know what happened. But then I thought, yeah, I would blame the parents. You don't just leave your kids with pretty much total strangers for months or, I guess, years on. In no it was.

Speaker 2: 30:14

It was just months, months on in, so it was just months. Months on end.

Speaker 3: 30:17

So it was from July to August or October, I mean, and she was dead. Wow, and I mean I guess probably like they're thinking we're coming back every month, If anything was- wrong they would let us know which they never did. But you don't know these people. You don't just leave your kids for months with people you don't know. That's insane. But in a way I guess we do that with nannies or daycare workers.

Speaker 2: 30:45

You don't really get to know them but that's why people have nanny cams now. That is true. Well, there's a lot of daycares that have cameras now because people don't trust strangers with their kids.

Speaker 3: 30:59

Yeah, I was thinking about that. Yeah, we kind of do that which there wasn't cameras and y'all stayed here, but y'all weren't in daycare much.

Speaker 2: 31:07

You were with your grandparents, but it was still and background checks are very big now, like I don't know if anything would have shown up on groceries background check, but I don't think so I don.

Speaker 3: 31:17

There wasn't anything I saw like that. So anyway, on May 19th 1966, gertrude was found guilty of first-degree murder, with life in prison. Paula was found guilty of second-degree murder and got life in prison. John Coy and Richard were found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to two to 21 years in prison. So in September of 1970, the Indiana Supreme Court reversed the convictions of Richard and Paula because they felt like there shouldn't have been like this whole five-person panel trial, which is kind of odd. But so they do end up no longer having life sentences. Gertrude actually gets paroled in 1985. She changes her name and she moves. She changes her name to Nadie Van Fonsen, I believe, her name to maybe Van Fonsen, I believe, and Paula also gets out and she changes her name and moves away. And do you know what Paula ends?

Speaker 2: 32:30

up doing with her life Hiding in a hole. That's what she should do. She should.

Speaker 3: 32:35

So she ends up being in the education area and somebody recognizes her, though, and they're like showing a picture, like hey, she changed her name, but this is her. Like do we really want her with our kids? Hard path and she was fired. So I mean like the way.

Speaker 3: 32:57

As a parent, I would raise so much hell if I found out yeah, but when you change your name, I feel like there should be still something like coming back, like we just talked about background checks. Like if you change your name though, yeah, you change your name, but you don't change your social security number so I don't know how she got any kind of background checks, may not.

Speaker 2: 33:15

I don't know when this was this was was in the 80s.

Speaker 3: 33:17

Surely they did background checks.

Speaker 2: 33:19

I don't know. Was she a teacher, though, or was she like? Was she like?

Speaker 3: 33:24

an aide.

Speaker 2: 33:26

No, she was like a teacher's aide, so I don't know, maybe they'll do a background check for that.

Speaker 3: 33:30

I feel like you should, though, or would it's with kids?

Speaker 2: 33:35

No, I'm not saying it shouldn't.

Speaker 3: 33:37

I mean I thought they even did it on the janitors and everything. They do now but it seems like if you're in a certain state, maybe other things weren't coming out.

Speaker 2: 33:46

I mean because we didn't have the computers and everything in the 80s. Right. So if you just did within that state, I don't know, I can't like looking into when it started is not really clear.

Speaker 3: 34:08

So I don't know. I don't know a lot about what happened to the rest of them and I'm sure they want to keep their privacy and keep any distance from any of this.

Speaker 3: 34:18

I don't know what happened to baby Gertrude. I'm assuming she was probably had her name changed by whoever adopted her. I don't think there was anybody that would have taken her. I don't know. Maybe her dad took her or her grandpa John. I don't know. I couldn't find anything out about her, so I don't know what happened to her. Hopefully she was adopted to a nice, normal family and they changed her name and didn't leave it as Gertrude. I don't know, and I don't know really what happened to a lot of them, like I don't know what happened to Stephanie or the other kids in that home. I hope that they learned from all of this and went on to have healthy families. I hope they all had therapy yes, therapy.

Speaker 2: 35:08

Lots of therapy.

Speaker 3: 35:11

And I'm sure I tried to find out more about Jenny and she just said like she got married and went on with life. But that had to be so traumatic for her too, and you have to carry some guilt, probably about what all you saw happen to your sister that you can't do anything about.

Speaker 2: 35:30

Right.

Speaker 3: 35:32

So, like Richard Hoggs, we do know that he ended up dying of lung cancer four years after he was released, and he also had a nervous breakdown, so he was one of them that went to prison he had a nervous breakdown in prison, probably because no after, after he got out um so sean.

Speaker 2: 35:54

I want to know what caused his nervous breakdown. Because he watched all that happen mentally seemed to be fine, and then has a nervous breakdown. Because he watched all that happen mentally seemed to be fine, and then has a nervous breakdown after leaving prison.

Speaker 3: 36:03

Who knows what happened to him in prison. This was stuff he was doing to people, but you don't know what happened to him in prison, karma.

Speaker 2: 36:12

I know what happened to him, karma.

Speaker 3: 36:15

So he died at the age of 21,. Though, karma yes.

Speaker 3: 36:18

He died at the age of 21, though, karma yes, so, coy Hubbard. He didn't even really do well after prison. He did go back to prison for various other crimes. Karma, john how do you say their last name? Well, john Jr. He actually ended up becoming a lay minister, though I don't know if I would want to go to his church, but he did counseling sessions for children of divorced parents, also as a lay minister. I just don't think. I know that you can ask forgiveness and all that, but I don't think I can go to your church.

Speaker 3: 36:59

I don't think I can do that. I don't want you teaching me how old was he. So what was he? I think he was 14. Let me see, I forgot.

Speaker 2: 37:18

So he was 12. I think I could go to church.

Speaker 3: 37:19

All right.

Speaker 2: 37:21

He was young, yeah, and had no control over what was happening in that house.

Speaker 3: 37:25

And his mother was. You know, you don't know what's going to happen to you if you don't go along with it. Right, I would go to his church. So he did end up becoming a layman, that's true. Once he which you know, he wasn't really in prison, he was a juvenile detention. So that's what he did with his life. But as far as the other kids, I can't really say what happened to them. I don't know, but that's all I know about the rest of them. I don't know what happened to the other kids.

Speaker 2: 37:56

Also the audacity of Paula to even like try to work with children after getting out of prison. For what she did, the audacity.

Speaker 3: 38:09

Maybe she thought she would be good at it, who knows? I mean people change. I still would not let her around my kids, but people change, I guess maybe. But she was quite a bit older than them, but I still when. I'm thinking, like you named your kid, gertrude, you had no remorse.

Speaker 2: 38:33

There are so many things that I'm like no, I don't know In reading it seemed like people talked about um, because I looked it up just a second ago when you were talking about it to see what job she had if she was a teacher and a that she's an a. But people talked about her being very quiet and helping with homework and like she just kind of was in the background. She didn't want the attention but like that's not a place to be ma'am, maybe.

Speaker 3: 39:04

I mean, we hear about all kinds of things that happen to people in prison and you know if you're beating kids or doing anything like that, then you're going to be targeted in prison. Well, that sounds more like a men's prison. Don't know what women do but still I don't know.

Speaker 2: 39:23

But some things probably had to happen to her that put into perspective what she did and I would say having a child of your own no, she named that baby gertrude.

Speaker 3: 39:34

That didn't change anything really have that like she couldn't keep that baby or be a part of it. She may have had children later. That was like, oh my gosh, I can't, I don't know, I'm just speculating. This is all speculation, I don't know, but I hate all of this had to happen to her.

Speaker 2: 39:54

She should have been on like a sex offenders registry. Her and Gertrude, yeah, because I mean there's no reason that they should be near a park, a school, a playground, anywhere where there's children.

Speaker 3: 40:08

I don't even think Gertrude should have ever gotten out.

Speaker 2: 40:11

No, that was wild Really. I don't think Paula should have either. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3: 40:14

She was old enough to know better and had no remorse. They should have kept both of them in forever. So that is all we have of that story. We have a lot of interviews coming up, a lot of exciting things going on. I hope you stay tuned for all of these exciting and awesome things going on. We will see you soon in Colorado if you plan to be there for the True Crime and Paranormal Podcast.

Speaker 2: 40:45

Festival, and if you haven't gotten your tickets, you need to get them ASAP. You could still use code MIMOSAS for a discount, all capital letters Also. We can go ahead and tell you now, but we won't post anything until July 1st. But October of next year we will be one of the headliners on a true crime and Halloween cruise, so you don't want to miss out on that. The prices are actually pretty pretty reasonable.

Speaker 2: 41:18

It'll be on the Margaritaville at sea, the new ship for the Margaritaville. It's a seven nights. We'll be going to Jamaica, cayman Islands and Mexico, so be sure to keep an eye out on our social medias.

Speaker 3: 41:34

We will be posting those, um, but and if we've been away for a while. So if you got any exciting new cases, send them to us and we will see what we can do.

Speaker 2: 42:40

Thank you, we always recommend more bubbly and less OJ Cheers.

Speaker 2: 42:54

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