Ever wonder about the meticulous craft behind your favorite true crime shows? Alexandra Kitty, author of "Murder in a Sundown Town" and a guiding force for "A Time to Kill," shares her serendipitous shift from art teacher to true crime researcher. In a riveting session, we unravel the complexities of distilling sprawling police and court files into captivating television, all while upholding the dignity of the victims and abiding by the legal sensitivities of their cases. Alexandra's insights provide a backstage pass to the nuances of true crime storytelling, shining a light on the unsung details that ensure each episode honors the lived experiences of those it portrays.
Peering into the fabric of society through the lens of true crime, we trace the parallels of independence in the gig economy to the spirit of the central figure in a case—Carol. Her story, emblematic of both isolation and self-reliance, brings us face-to-face with societal shifts and the profound impact of true crime narratives in reflecting these changes. As we dissect the emotional toll on detectives and the importance of maintaining the humanity of victims, Alexandra helps us appreciate the delicate balance between investigation and narrative, justice and remembrance.
Closing with the harrowing yet inspiring tale of Mary Vincent, the episode underscores the contrast between the fast-paced churn of TV production and the thoughtful tempo of book research. Alexandra candidly shares her passion for the detailed narrative that pays homage to the strength and resilience of victims. Join us as we toast to the depth and intensity true crime brings to storytelling, inviting you to share your thoughts and case suggestions. Let's lift our glasses for more mimosas and fewer tragedies, celebrating the craft that keeps the memory of those lost alive and the genre that refuses to let their stories be forgotten. Cheers!
Ever wonder about the meticulous craft behind your favorite true crime shows? Alexandra Kitty, author of "Murder in a Sundown Town" and a guiding force for "A Time to Kill," shares her serendipitous shift from art teacher to true crime researcher. In a riveting session, we unravel the complexities of distilling sprawling police and court files into captivating television, all while upholding the dignity of the victims and abiding by the legal sensitivities of their cases. Alexandra's insights provide a backstage pass to the nuances of true crime storytelling, shining a light on the unsung details that ensure each episode honors the lived experiences of those it portrays.
Peering into the fabric of society through the lens of true crime, we trace the parallels of independence in the gig economy to the spirit of the central figure in a case—Carol. Her story, emblematic of both isolation and self-reliance, brings us face-to-face with societal shifts and the profound impact of true crime narratives in reflecting these changes. As we dissect the emotional toll on detectives and the importance of maintaining the humanity of victims, Alexandra helps us appreciate the delicate balance between investigation and narrative, justice and remembrance.
Closing with the harrowing yet inspiring tale of Mary Vincent, the episode underscores the contrast between the fast-paced churn of TV production and the thoughtful tempo of book research. Alexandra candidly shares her passion for the detailed narrative that pays homage to the strength and resilience of victims. Join us as we toast to the depth and intensity true crime brings to storytelling, inviting you to share your thoughts and case suggestions. Let's lift our glasses for more mimosas and fewer tragedies, celebrating the craft that keeps the memory of those lost alive and the genre that refuses to let their stories be forgotten. Cheers!
Darkcast Network. Welcome to the dark side of podcasting. Welcome to Murder and Mimosas, a true crime podcast brought to you by a mother and daughter duo.
Speaker 2:
Bringing you murder stories with a mimosas in hand.
Speaker 1:
Just a quick disclaimer before we get started. Our show is Murder and Mimosas a true crime podcast. Before we get started, our show is Murder and Mimosas. It's a true crime podcast. This means that we do discuss crimes, including, but not limited to, disappearances, murder and sexual assault. All our episodes are told with the respect of the victims and the victims' families in mind. We strive to ensure that we provide factual information. Some information is more verifiable than others. With that, grab your mimosas and let's dive in. Can you just go ahead? Tell us your name real quick and the name of the book, and then I'll pull up the questions that they've sent me. Okay, my name is.
Speaker 2:
Alexandra Kitty. I'm the author of Genius Publishing's 2023 book called Murder in a Sundown Town, and it's about the murder of Carol Jenkins.
Speaker 1:
Yes, okay, can you tell?
Speaker 2:
us because you work. Your background is in like true crime TV, correct Right, work, your background is in like true crime tv, correct right? I worked as a true crime researcher for a show, uh, produced by cineflex, called the time to kill uh. In the uk and canada it's called homicide, hours to kill. I did season seven, eight and nine and I was their researcher, so I did about eight stories for them very cool um one.
Speaker 1:
One of the questions was how did you get into kind of that field of work? What led you there?
Speaker 2:
I was totally by chance. I was writing books, but I wanted to take a kind of breather because I also teach art and I write books. And this came up and I thought I'm'm gonna try. Uh, I've seen it, it's a researcher for a true crime show and I thought this is a dream job. I won't get it, but it's a dream job. So I applied and they said well, we'd like. They emailed me back, we'd like to have an interview with you, and I said, oh, okay, uh, they're probably laughing going with this, uh, writer and art teacher wanting to do this, but I have a background in research. So they interviewed me and I thought I'm not going to get it. And they said this was on a Thursday. I said no, it's Friday. I said I'll see you Monday and I was like, oh my God, this was like one day.
Speaker 2:
I started working one day before my birthday. I totally did not expect. I started on a May 9th and my birthday is May 10th and I thought you're kidding me. Okay, what did I get myself into? Because I've watched True Crime for years and years and years Since I was a kid you know Dateline and there were other ones I used to watch and 48 Hours, and so I said, okay, I would like to see it on the other side, because you know things as a fan, as a viewer, but when you're on the other side of the camera it does help to have a true interest in it. But it wasn't what I expected. So that's how I got into it and I have to say it's one of the happiest jobs I've ever had. I really enjoyed it Very cool.
Speaker 1:
I'm going to actually pop a question based off what you just said. What did you notice was different from that side versus the side of the viewer?
Speaker 2:
it. So you have to get the police files, you have to get the court files. You have to clear hurdles. If the family doesn't agree it's a non-starter. You have to have the lead detective agree. You have to talk to the prosecutors.
Speaker 2:
Who did this, anybody who might have had something to do with it, some of the forensics team or whatever. You're interviewing different people and different things pop, and then you're reading news reports on this and you're listening to other people's take on it and all of a sudden you're going this is a lot more textured, but you can't put everything on because you only have 43 minutes. Right, as a researcher, you have to cram everything in there. So it might not show in the narrator, but it might be in a recreate. Which are these little informations? That might be totally silent, because these actors usually rarely speak, but it's in there. So you're trying to cram in as much. And then, when you're watching it again as a you know, as a fan, you appreciate, you know, okay, this is the researcher, found this and this. You know that the woman with the longer hair and she might've had that's probably somebody found out a fact about this person that we're talking about, but it's not overt. So you actually, if you pay attention, you'll actually learn more. So this is actually great for multiple viewing because you'll say, oh okay, that's interesting, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:
Uh, once I was asked, uh by the uh, the showrunner, what was the victim wearing that day? So I had to go find out what was the victim wearing that day. So I had to go find out what the victim was wearing that day. And when it was the, there was actual same thing that the person wore on the night that the poor man was murdered. But this is how accurate we get in true crime, where we look for every little. There's no green too small and when you're watching you're enjoying the big picture. You're not thinking of all the little grains that are contributing. It's like a chorus, but you only hear it as a single note and I think that was, I think, probably a huge eye opener. It was very exciting to see how much work a single researcher does for a single story.
Speaker 1:
Wow, that is very cool and I'm sure as doing that, it probably gives you a whole new appreciation as a viewer watching this going oh, they've added this little thing and that little thing. Now when I'm watching I'm going to have to be extra, you know, eagle-eyed. Oh, okay, I see where they added that. That's very, very cool. And that actually answered one question. People were asking where do you get the information? One person asked out of all of the stories and cases that you came across, what made you write about carols?
Speaker 2:
Well, carol was interesting to me because when you start writing, you're just thrown in and then you start right away. First, I mean there's no, uh slow ramp, you just jump right in and but you're also, uh, pitching stories to producers. You get stories, but then you're also expected to suggest stories. The problem is that things are very specific depending on the show. So, uh, what a time to kill is all about the timeline. You have to have a certain kind of victims and they have to have multiple suspects. About the timeline, you had to have a certain kind of victims and they had to have multiple suspects. And the lead detective, I mean, there's a whole list of things, Laundry list of things, but in the beginning you're not savvy to this, right, so I would suggest, and they go no, no, no, that's wrong. There's only like two people that suspect that you can't do that. You can, to suspect that that's that's, you can't do that, you can't do that, or you can't do that, you go. I have to learn really quickly.
Speaker 2:
So I started looking at different true crime cases, just taking them at random and going, okay, would this fit with this, not fit. So then I would learn. Well, you're watching, you're reading, and then somehow Carol just touched my heart. I said she would have been absolutely perfect because this would be exactly what a show like this? Because it's absolutely. You know, it's a victim who was at the wrong place at the wrong time. They didn't know even all this other stuff, and yet she wouldn't be in the show. You couldn't fit her. No matter, you know, she would have been somebody we need to know about, not just want to know about. You want to because you feel a connection to her, but you need to know this historically. And I thought now this is not fair and I might sound very much naive, but I think naivete and idealism is what drives and evolves society. And I go well, why don't I? Okay, I can't do it for this show, I can do it on my own. That's what drew me, because I just just couldn't. I have empathy and I couldn't shake it. So there's, you know, there's things you look at and you go. You just once you see it, you don't unsee it. You once you sent else, once you feel it, you don't unfeel it.
Speaker 2:
So here's a young woman working. She was working at a factory. Everybody loved her. Literally, she was temporarily shut out of the factory. There was a strike. That's not something you can foresee, so she didn't sit there feeling sorry for herself. A friend goes, well why don't we sell encyclopedias? Which is kind of dangerous when you think about it, going strange neighborhoods door to door. But she said fine and she did it and this is something we revere in society. We love people like this. Who you know, that old japanese saying you know, get down, fall down seven times, get up eight. And carol was that kind of person. And what happened? She was killed the first night.
Speaker 2:
She did that right that's not, you know, that doesn't go away. That that's all of us, I think absolutely.
Speaker 2:
Carol is. Carol is everyone. How many of us have made plans? They fell apart and through no fault of our own, we go and we do something totally different. We go out of our comfort zone. We're willing to try, we're willing to.
Speaker 2:
You know, and she was scared the first night. She really was. And she decided okay, I'm going to work. And people loved her. When she went door to door, when the police interviewed, when the reporters interviewed neighbors, after they said we just loved her. She was so outgoing she was, so she was actually going against her very shy, introverted personality.
Speaker 2:
So this is, you know, when you have a list of everything when you're a young woman, you need to do, she checked them all off and got murdered for her troubles. And that hit me, I think, because I'm one of those people who I don't take no for an answer. If you know, one door shuts and I'll try it, if I can't break it down, I'll go through a window, I'll go through another door, I'll build the door myself. That was Carol and you, you. It just stays with you. Just, you know, sometimes pure luck, pure luck. And I said you know, this was a very much somebody I could relate to. And I said this is somebody who whose story needs to be told, not just by me but by other people, and I thought this is you know. If I can contribute, I would be very, very happy and grateful.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely, and I think Carol definitely seems like someone who could be relatable to a lot of people, even though this case is older this was a different time, you know like I'm not obviously privy to the prejudice that she was but I can still relate to Carol and what she was going through at that time and I think that's something that a lot of people can relate to and probably why it's such a great case.
Speaker 2:
But also to me. I thought you know she's more, we can relate to her more in this age. What's the big thing? The gig economy? You know Lyft or Uber, you're driving strangers to different, you're delivering things to different spouses. That is what we, that's now our norm. Right, you know, that's true, we are, you know, we finally kind of caught up to Carol.
Speaker 2:
Carol was actually in figure very much ahead of her time. Okay, A gig, what's the gig? I can do this, I can, I can look after myself. That's what we all do. We all take, you know, we take a stint here, we take a stint here or we take a stint there. Some things happen or we just pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off. That's our norm and that was Carol. And I think Carol very much is somebody who is probably more relevant in 2024 than we can understand in 1968, when we didn't have the Internet or social media. That actually brought our attention to, you know, the plurality of people's situations. We have different situations and yet we can all relate to Carol because of you know, the times have changed and we can understand her better.
Speaker 1:
Right Actually, and I hadn't even thought of the connection of how similar that is to you know, now that you know we have DoorDash or we have Uber and Lyft and all of these sidekicks where we are having to interact with strangers, but we do them because we need that money and that's actually a really great connection. I'm glad you brought that up because that isn't one that comes through my mind, so I'm sure some others will see that as well. One question was are there any other true crime cases that you are considering or would consider writing a book about in the future?
Speaker 2:
There is one. I actually worked on it when I was doing A Time to Kill. It was never done before by any other true crime story and it took place in Manitoba and it was heartbreaking and it was bizarre at the same time. And it was this aunt and her grown son that were murdered. Actually, they found Elise Stepa first and they thought it was her very eccentric. They were both very eccentric. That was her nephew, a 50-year-old man, who was very eccentric. That was, uh, her nephew, a 50 year old man, uh, who had, uh, was very eccentric, uh, he had schizophrenia and he thought he did. Except they found his body.
Speaker 2:
And that to me, is a lot, because there were so many red flags and yet this small town with 314 people were totally unable to help these people and even the killer needed psychiatric intervention. So this is to me, a case where you're so isolated and actually the family had a weird secret and that came out during the investigation that he was a wanted man. Actually, in the city I live in, hamilton, ontario, this was all the way in another province of Manitoba, he broke a policeman's arm because he made his money stealing and so his aunt tried to save him by moving to another province, but she was overwhelmed. He was unable to take care of himself. The young killer was unable to take care of himself and there was no support. So this was, you know, when you have people who don't see the world, let's say they're like the way uh, somebody who doesn't have these problems do what happens when you don't have supports and canada is a country that has a lot of supports, like how you easily we can all fall through the cracks and I think something like that.
Speaker 2:
I love the true crime genre, but I also like looking at different cases of people who maybe do not fit or something's gone wrong, and it's sometimes. There's a lot of people it's not like they don't have people who don't try to help. There's a. There's another true crime case I would love to do from Canada. This was absolutely heartbreaking. It was a young woman. She had a very good job. She married an abuser who killed her and now how many times do people have interventions to bad people begging her not to marry this man? She had two, wow, and these people did not know each other and this was totally then independent and she went and what happened? Her case is beyond heartbreaking. So there's a lot of cases to me. You know where we do talk about. You know the detectives and how they find them. Sometimes it's brilliant and genius and sometimes it's just they come, they wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning and knock on every door trying to find just a little great.
Speaker 1:
And.
Speaker 2:
I think we really appreciate detectives, what they have to do. Everyone that I dealt with when I was working as a researcher they stayed in contact with the families. Yeah, they stayed in contact for decades. They felt very protected, and so did a lot of DAs. They were, that was their duty, even if they were retired. Wow, and that's a lot of times people don't understand they people take their work home with them and if you're a detective and you see, you know a young woman, you know just getting her life back together and there she is strangled because, uh, the you know the maintenance man came in and strangled her to death, you, we, you know, you think, well, that's horrible, well, it's horrible when you see this young person, you see the parents crying and all this and you feel like the whole burden's on there. So to me I would love to kind of cover it also from the emotional standpoint, and I do have interest. There's a lot of stories.
Speaker 2:
I think we forget how much victims matter who they were as a person who they were, who they meant to, what they mean to somebody, and and kind of go from that, because a lot of stories could be retold. We we can have layers, so it's not like this is done wrong.
Speaker 2:
No, it pulled me in. This is done, right, this is done. But we have layers. We're like an onion. You can peel off one of those and just as you think, well, there's, this story's been done to death? No, it isn't. We have, we can look at it from a different angle. Whole bunch of stuff and all of a sudden, you appreciate this case even more, right. So that's why people go.
Speaker 2:
I don't believe there's such a thing, because we all have different perspectives, we all know things, we have different strengths. Some people are good survivors, some people are good with logic, some people have empathy. Each one of those people are going to look at that same case and they're going to see different, and that's why I love podcasts, I love true crime books, I love TV shows, because you can never learn enough and it's nice that the person, even though they're not here with us anymore, we keep on going. They still live in our minds, in our hearts, and we think of it A lot of times. You think this is actually a very you know, people don't understand true crime. I think a lot of people don't understand this journey, how we connect to people who we know we will never see, ever, and probably we would have really gotten along with this person or liked them, and.
Speaker 1:
But we can still keep them going absolutely, I think that is very, very true and I love your, your thoughts on you know, the different layers that you said. Uh, I love how and I see it a lot, being in the true crime podcast world that you, you know I can cover a case and another true crime podcast can cover the same case, but when you hear it, it's two very different things, because we may be looking at the psychology of the person who did it and they may be looking at the victim and then there's, you know, the detective's angle and the family's angle and it's all very different, um, but it's all one story when you put it all together. So that is very true and I do think that you're probably right. I don't think everybody understands the true crime genre, um, but I think that if they gave it a chance and they found the perspective that spoke to them, it would be different. I don't think they found their perspective just yet.
Speaker 2:
I don't think there's a better genre than true crime. I have to be honest, I think, of all the different genres we have, you know, in terms of documentary, I don't think there's any that we can go on. For, you know, 500 years from now we'll still be talking about, because it's something that we can both makes us afraid but it also makes us brave, you know, it gives us empathy, but it also, you know, going it makes us skeptical. So we all those emotions that we have, sometimes people go, are very conflicted. I go watch true crime and try to understand it from different perspectives, from the police to the victim, to the family. You learn to harmonize those emotions and think, and you don't have to. It's not like something that you have to sit there and do homework. You can sit and enjoy it. Your brain's working even when you're enjoying it, and I think you're getting entertained. Uh, you're getting educated, uh, you're learning and you're learning about yourself, your reactions.
Speaker 2:
You know, sometimes you watch something, you start to cry, and you can watch thousands of these and then there'll be that case that hits you. It could be a photograph, it could be a 911 call. You start to cry and you go. Why? Because I feel that 911 call, I feel that picture. It makes you feel helpless. But then it says, okay, I'm going to be more vigilant. If I can do something to prevent that from happening to someone else, even once in my life, then you know what that? You know hundreds of hours listening and watching and reading it made me a better person. So it's one of those things. You entertain yourself and yet it makes you a better person and you don't even know why. It just works on you and without working on you. And that's why I say, uh, you know, viva true crime. It's probably. You know, we can never get enough of it and it actually helps us. You know, a lot of people want, you know, sweep things under the rug, and true crime says, no, we're not sweeping it under the rug, we're going to look at this, we're going to honor this person, we're going to understand what's going on, and it's one of those things. If you like truth, you like true crime, and that's one of those things. If you have empathy, you like it. If you like to survive, you like it. There's lots of things where I'm amazed.
Speaker 2:
A lot of times, victims amaze me. There was one victim. Poor, young teenage girl ran away. She got caught by a killer, mary Vincent. You, a young teenage girl ran away. She got caught by a killer, mary Vincent, you might have heard of her. He chopped off her arms and she survived because she remembered if you put your arms up, less blood flow. And she saved herself. And I will always remember her and I will always be grateful that I learned more about survival from this young teenage girl. I mean, she's an adult now. Then you know you might have you know done in any class. So you know we learn to focus on the victims, we learn to look for signs of trouble and we appreciate what it takes to bring those pieces together, to bring somebody who was thought they were smarter than everybody else to prison.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely.
Speaker 2:
Thank you for inviting me. This is very interesting. This is a. It's nice. When people ask you, you know when you're writing you're the one asking the questions and then you don't you don't. And then when people ask, you know we ask you questions. You do appreciate it because you go well, yeah, I have it all up here, but then there's other process of putting it together. I think that's also interesting I'm being on the other side of true crime that you understand the process of putting an episode together and yeah, and there's so much I mean you're talking thousands of pages per case and you make this book, like you know, 20 to 50 pages.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
So that's the Bible and it's a book and you're looking and you're going, I didn't go. You get the episode they remember. Yeah, they put that in, but it wasn't overtly, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:
I remember what the victim wore. They remembered this.
Speaker 2:
I'm so happy that you know they listened to you. You don't think people listen to you and when you're researching yeah, they did. They took everything, Every word, to heart.
Speaker 1:
So, if anybody ever has the opportunity to do that that's that.
Speaker 2:
It's a real thrill. It's a lot of work. It's more work than you would have think, but it's. It's a. It's never boring. I can see that yeah and you learn to appreciate, uh, how many people had to find all those clues, process and analyze it, because you go, yeah, you know, you get the police files came today. They're like uh, that's 7 000 pages, uh, we need it. And a report, you know your research back in two days. Okay, consider it done and just read them. Oh, wow, oh wow, oh wow.
Speaker 1:
It's probably like a treasure trove. I do have one question that I actually just thought of, that I'll shoot your way Researching for the the true crime television show versus researching for a book, did you have a preference on which, one that you enjoyed more or one that you felt more comfortable doing well?
Speaker 2:
I felt more comfortable with the book because I do books so that to me I can take my time, I can sit and think. I'm a little bit. I might be considered an overthinker or a philosopher, so I have to ponder all things. It's like, well, I'm just being like Ben Stone from Law Order. I think if you're talking about a personality, you're Jack McCoy when you're doing TV.
Speaker 1:
Pick your.
Speaker 2:
Law Order district attorney from version 1.0. Tv is much more fast and people ask you and challenge you and the directors will ask you a question. You don't think about it because you're doing so much over well, and then the director comes up with a brilliant, because you have that meeting with the director, so they know what they're going to ask and do and they go. That's brilliant. I didn't think about it but I'll get back to you. So you get much more push. You know, and here you're on your own devices and I think I was. I would kind of you know that lone wolf where I'm used to being on my own and I really appreciated television because it's a group effort, so it's teamwork and I really I can. I do books, but I think I would do television in a heartbeat again because I like when people you know, you know, push back and then you might get mad for about two seconds. No, that was brilliant. Let me answer the question.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, well, you know they say you know multiple. Well, they don't say two minds is better than one, but in that case more than one, I think, especially because you know, like we talked about, there's so many perspectives. Having all those people, they're all going to see it a different way so you can really make that you know meaningful and in depth from all those different perspectives. But I think you still did a great job as a lone wolf in your book on doing that, because we saw different perspectives. I definitely felt different emotions during different points. But if I've learned anything today it's that if I ever get the chance to research for sure crime television, I'm jumping on it and I'm riding that train.
Speaker 2:
But oh yeah, if you're on that train, you don't want to get off. I mean, once you start doing it, it's like you get overwhelmed, but it's like a good overwhelm, like sometimes you because it's a mystery you're reconstructing that. It's not like being overwhelmed in other jobs. You are like connected to as soon as you hit. You know, I got the lead detective. He said he'll do it, and then you, you run and you, you know, you grab things and then they'll go. What you got this week, it's like I'm waiting for replies. What do you mean you're waiting for? Well, I have to talk to the pio, he has to get a permission and this and this. And then it's like, well, we only have one week to shooting. And they're like like, uh, the five minutes after the meeting when they say, well, nobody's come back to go, we'll do oh yeah, everything's fine. Then go to your boss, everything's fine and everything's fine. And it's like, well, why couldn't you say that before the meeting? Cause I didn't have that answer before the meeting.
Speaker 1:
You feel like a bad student. It's a lot of moving parts, but in a really cool way.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, when you feel like a bad student, like you feel like Ferris Bueller, like you're a bad you, and that's the fun part too.
Speaker 1:
That's awesome. I love that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do this quick Q&A with me. I appreciate you taking the time and just sitting down. I'd love to get to just chat with you and ask a few questions, pick your brain. Is there anything that you wanted to add that I didn't cover?
Speaker 2:
Anything like that. No, you did a really good job. We covered everything. I can't think of anything else except it's. It was a very it was a very sad case to cover and I didn't want to make it just sorrow. I just wanted people to see how we put an episode together and for people to kind of, when they watch or listen, to trick or to appreciate it more. It's because I think it's a I won't say underrated genre, because there's a lot, but I think it's an underappreciated genre and I'm so glad that so many podcasters and streamers have decided to delve into this because it's something people don't think about and it's as I said, it's the way we can keep a lot of uh, the fallen people still in our memories decades after it's happened.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely. I a thousand percent agree with you on that. Okay, well, if you don't have anything else that you might need to add or that I didn't cover, then I'll let you get off here, but I really, really appreciate you talking to me. We always recommend more bubbly and less OJ Cheers. If you'd like to see pictures from today's episode, you can find us at murdermimosas on Instagram. You can also find us at murdermimosas on TikTok, twitter, and if you have a case you would like us to do, you can send that to murdermimosas at gmailcom. And lastly, we are on Facebook at Murder and Mimosas Podcast, where you can interact with us there. We love any type of feedback you can give us, so please write and review us on Spotify, itunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts.